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Trixar_za
Eleet
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 624
Location: South Africa
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 Posted: Aug 06, 2010 6:46am Post subject: |
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| He might not control IRC, but he does control one of the most used Windows IRC clients. This is why most projects to better IRC clients tend to fail because he refuses to cooperate. |
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katsklaw
Guru
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 1614
Location: Somewhere you're not.
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| Posted: Aug 06, 2010 3:06pm Post subject: |
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| Trixar_za wrote: | | He might not control IRC, but he does control one of the most used Windows IRC clients. This is why most projects to better IRC clients tend to fail because he refuses to cooperate. |
Consider all that *has* been added that is currently supported by mIRC *cough*RFC281x*cough*. He can't be all that stubborn. Additionally, all his paying users and new potential paying users can be a powerful incentive. Seriously though, if you made untold sums of money per month, do you really want to risk losing it simply because something trivial you don't agree with? of course not. The power of Rome was not the roman army, it was public en mass hence "power of the mob". |
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SecretAgent
none
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 5
Location: California
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| Posted: Aug 06, 2010 6:18pm Post subject: |
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| darkwarrior wrote: | | katsklaw wrote: | | In all honesty I think the network with the best chance of success is DareNet. They run modded nef/x3 iirc and x3 is modded to tie into their website db and Nef is one such ircd that accepts nickserv type uname/pass at registration. |
Yeah, I am quite impressed with the appearance of the amount of work they have put into it. But a few things have kind of stood out for me with DareNET that put me in doubt.. Not to take us off of the topic or anything, but while we're on the subject of success for the future of IRC, things like this should be noticed.
Organization and overview:
DareNET: http://www.darenet.org/organization
GameSurge: http://www.gamesurge.net/cms/Management%20and%20Organization/
and
http://www.gamesurge.net/organization/
Titles:
DareNET: http://www.darenet.org/titles
GameSurge: http://www.gamesurge.net/titles/
Channel Registration Guidelines:
DareNET: http://www.darenet.org/channel_registration
GameSurge: http://www.gamesurge.net/cms/Registration_Guidelines/
Surely you can see where this is going by now.. While I am definitely impressed by the thought that a lot of work may have gone into most of their network, I must pose the question about the material they just pretty much copied from GameSurge. Where do we draw the line of when it is acceptable for a network which boasts a high level of experience and management experience (which was obviously in one of the copied documents) to copy word for word from another network, therefore considered copyright infringement? It definitely makes me wonder if they may have copied the code of any modules or patches or other development to their ircd and services and claimed it to be their own? I mean anyone could simply modify the help replies on the services and change a few commands (pretty easy to do with the bind abilities of X3 to bind new commands), change the version name and claim it to be their own..
I do believe it is great that they would model their network after one like GameSurge, but to copy the actual pages word for word like that could have been avoided and they could have went an extra mile to explain it in their own words. I'd be even more impressed then. I mean sure there's only so many ways to have a network's team setup (an individual rules all, committee based, or some sort of democracy sort of heirarchy), but just look at all other networks who have modeled after each other. I don't see them taking word for word every explanation and description of the rules or other things.
That is just my input, and I kind of have to put some of the blame on things like that being another cause to IRC's slow death, especially developers and scripters who have pretty much disappeared. I know quite a bit of them left due to people taking their hard work of scripts and claiming it to be their own. This is sort of the same kind of thing. Did you not catch that katsklaw? lol
In conclusion, I would agree with katsklaw that they are definitely headed down the right path... If only they'd just make their own documentation on those few things.. |
Since I'm pretty much the sole developer of services-darenet (our fork of X3) and ircd-darenet (our fork of Nefarious IRCu), I guess I'll comment on a few of your remarks.
There is no denying some of our policies and practices mirror GameSurge, as some of our staff were once affiliated with that network and generally liked the way they did things. However, our intention has never been to directly copy them. While the pages you listed are similar in layout, the content is different. Only the organization page was 'iffy', and to be honest that was never meant to be public. It was there to fill space while the site was under development until we came up with something more original. Unfortunately, no one bothered to remove it when the site actually went public. So thank you for pointing that out.
As for our services and ircd, we have made it pretty clear that we are not the original developers of either of these packages. We have left all copyright and credits notices intact both in the source, and within services' VERSION command and the ircd's COPYRIGHT and INFO commands.
We routinely merge in upstream commits, and provide recognition to the original authors of such code (those who have followed our commits through CIA.vc have seen this). We also occasionally have dialogue with members of those development teams both in our development channel or their's.
All other modifications are 100% our own, such as HostServ (which while similar to GameSurge's title system, is a services module developed specifically by us, since one has never been released for Srvx/X3). From what I can remember, I think we have only used code from other projects in two instances (both from ircd-ratbox), which is credited in the ChangeLog and source where it is actually used.
Anyway, I don't want to go off topic (which I pretty much did), but I thought I'd clear that up. And only having 3 posts since 2003, It gave me a reason to post again  |
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SecretAgent
none
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 5
Location: California
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| Posted: Aug 06, 2010 6:37pm Post subject: |
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| katsklaw wrote: | | IMHO, getting all the client/ircd authors together to collaborate on a new standard would be nearly the same as getting all the irc network admins together to form 1 huge network. |
Sadly, I agree.
This has been tried a few times in the past, and each time it has failed. It is simply hard to get so many people to agree on things, especially when people have such different views on what IRC is and should be. Also, this is partly the reason there are so many different ircds to begin with -- each with their own server<>server protocol or extended/modified versions of an existing one.
While clients are mostly developed to support the various ircds, some of the more radical changes will have to start with the client authors. |
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Ryan-DM
none
Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Aug 06, 2010 9:29pm Post subject: |
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| Trixar_za wrote: | | He might not control IRC, but he does control one of the most used Windows IRC clients. This is why most projects to better IRC clients tend to fail because he refuses to cooperate. |
Khaled has cooperated with me just fine every time I've spoken with him or had a request. He's a good guy. |
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Trixar_za
Eleet
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 624
Location: South Africa
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| Posted: Aug 07, 2010 6:55am Post subject: |
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| Ryan-DM wrote: | | Khaled has cooperated with me just fine every time I've spoken with him or had a request. He's a good guy. |
I suggest trying to track down the mailing list logs of DCC2 - specifically the ones concerning Khaled and mIRC. They used to talk about it alot, which is probably why I remembered it (I also only read it after the fact).
Yes, he's a good guy, but that doesn't always mean he does what's best for IRC. To Further comment on katsklaw, how can Khaled's clients make him do anything they don't know about? |
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katsklaw
Guru
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 1614
Location: Somewhere you're not.
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| Posted: Aug 07, 2010 7:04am Post subject: |
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| Trixar_za wrote: | | To Further comment on katsklaw, how can Khaled's clients make him do anything they don't know about? |
When ircd's expand past mIRC's abilities and features in the ircd can't be supported by mIRC, the users will notice.
client1: supports feature 1,2,3,4,5 and 6
mIRC: supports feature 1,2
Which client would you buy? Think about it. Users stop buying mIRC because features are not supported.
Try this: grab mIRC 2.1 and connect to an Unreal network, you will see what I'm talking about. |
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darkwarrior
Lurker
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Aug 07, 2010 6:13pm Post subject: |
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| SecretAgent wrote: | Since I'm pretty much the sole developer of services-darenet (our fork of X3) and ircd-darenet (our fork of Nefarious IRCu), I guess I'll comment on a few of your remarks.
There is no denying some of our policies and practices mirror GameSurge, as some of our staff were once affiliated with that network and generally liked the way they did things. However, our intention has never been to directly copy them. While the pages you listed are similar in layout, the content is different. Only the organization page was 'iffy', and to be honest that was never meant to be public. It was there to fill space while the site was under development until we came up with something more original. Unfortunately, no one bothered to remove it when the site actually went public. So thank you for pointing that out.
As for our services and ircd, we have made it pretty clear that we are not the original developers of either of these packages. We have left all copyright and credits notices intact both in the source, and within services' VERSION command and the ircd's COPYRIGHT and INFO commands.
We routinely merge in upstream commits, and provide recognition to the original authors of such code (those who have followed our commits through CIA.vc have seen this). We also occasionally have dialogue with members of those development teams both in our development channel or their's.
All other modifications are 100% our own, such as HostServ (which while similar to GameSurge's title system, is a services module developed specifically by us, since one has never been released for Srvx/X3). From what I can remember, I think we have only used code from other projects in two instances (both from ircd-ratbox), which is credited in the ChangeLog and source where it is actually used.
Anyway, I don't want to go off topic (which I pretty much did), but I thought I'd clear that up. And only having 3 posts since 2003, It gave me a reason to post again |
Thank you for clearing it up. I hope that you can look past this and not be offended in any way by my post. I just noticed those things and had to point it out because of similar events in the past that turned out to be bad. I probably shouldn't have generalized your network into the same category but surely you understand.
----
katsklaw has a good point... But that makes me wonder why Khaled isn't contributing much to the improvement of IRC, or refuses to join any group that is for that? I mean think about it... He can't be blind to the fact that IRC's population is declining, which means a loss of potential customers for him. Where if he'd contribute to updating and improving IRC, it would possibly bring more users back into IRC, which means more potential customers for him. That business logic makes more sense, right? Why refuse to support something that has potential to revive a slowly declining service? |
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Trixar_za
Eleet
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 624
Location: South Africa
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| Posted: Aug 08, 2010 6:49am Post subject: |
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| As I recall it, they quoted him as saying something like "IRC clients aren't meant to be p2p sharing application." or similar. Maybe he had a point for refusing to support DCC2. IRC Plus was more pointed at servers to create more raw calls for the clients. |
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katsklaw
Guru
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 1614
Location: Somewhere you're not.
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| Posted: Aug 08, 2010 8:12am Post subject: |
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| Trixar_za wrote: | | As I recall it, they quoted him as saying something like "IRC clients aren't meant to be p2p sharing application." or similar. Maybe he had a point for refusing to support DCC2. IRC Plus was more pointed at servers to create more raw calls for the clients. |
And he is absolutely correct. Just because he refused to support 1 or 2 features/protocol changes doesn't mean he directly or indirectly played a role in the foreseeable failure of IRC. |
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darkwarrior
Lurker
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Aug 09, 2010 11:49pm Post subject: |
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| Perhaps it would be better to get Khaled to confirm his reason and provide his views regarding this? lol... Would clear up any doubts or confusions people have about him. |
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katsklaw
Guru
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 1614
Location: Somewhere you're not.
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| Posted: Aug 10, 2010 6:31am Post subject: |
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"IRC clients aren't meant to be p2p sharing application." or similar
That seems rather clear to me. If he doesn't like it then he doesn't like it. He should'tn have to wander the internet for the rest of his life defending his opinion. |
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