To savor IRC and not let things deterioate

JoeK

Mind any spelling failures, as i do have that common mis-type issue.

Thesis: IRCds are too 'easy' for people to run and install. Most users try to build a network because they cant follow other network rules (can name a few hundred networks here that did do). I think IRCds should be closed source(keep reading), or require a series of tests and manual allowance of being able to use the ircd (unreal dev support have a support quiz system. Easy to cheat through.). This would help medium and larger networks, as more people will learn to cope with rules, and will not be powerhungry/mad when their network does fly down the drain faster and deeper than the U.S economy.

Voice your comments to be heard/read!

(update before prior posting: I know people can use older IRCds, but, very unlikly, the irc protocol can be edited a bit so you can make them obsolete, and put 'activation codes' or some sort of allow system in IRCds to prevent 'illegal' distribution of the software.

greg27 · Idler Joined: 07 Oct 2006 Posts: 255 Location: Australia

One of the best ways to learn is to do. I started on IRC many years ago as a Java user from a Harry Potter fan site. It was by downloading UnrealIRCd, setting it up on my own computer and playing around that I learned about running an IRC server. If you don't allow anyone access to an IRCd for testing purposes how the hell is someone supposed to learn? IRC is dying, but let's not help push it off the ledge.

Jobe · Posted: May 08, 2009 1:54am Post subject:

I agree with greg27, the best way to learn is to do. Nothing beats practical experiance, and you just cant get that these days without being able to run your own IRCd.

I mean I dev for Nefarious ircu, and there have been very few people who have been interested in or use it who havent got much experiance with IRCd's already. In other words you dont tend to find it on small newbie networks, but you can find it on small experianced networks.

To be honest I think the biggest problem is some IRCd's make it TOO easy for just anyone to become a server admin by installing your own IRCd. And then there's the Windows builds of some IRCd's, if they didn't exist, about 20% of the newbie networks would never have been started and given how many newbie networks there are, that is a fairly substancial number.

JoeK · Posted: May 08, 2009 4:18am Post subject:

Well, perhaps my methods are false to the point, but, as with my other post, some people download unreal and give it to others to install it for them. This is one of the things i would like to try tio prevent

PingBad · Posted: May 08, 2009 5:13am Post subject:

WHile a noble gesture, I find your idea to be largely impractical...

"IRCds are too 'easy' for people to run and install" - There are some people with totally awesome PR and staff-interaction skills; but no technical skills regarding Unix shells, compiling, etc (ie: IRC commands with their relevent parameters is one thing, environment variables and compilation scripts is totally another); so depriving the unix-newbie the chance to build a live support network for a product/company in the name of preventing power hungry children from starting up their own network may be a step in the wrong direction for IRC as a whole
"I think IRCds should be closed source" - if IRCds were closed source, I highly doubt the adoption of a lot of common features (or even the various IRCd flavors) would exist; A lot of open source projects tend to share a lot of code concepts (one example I'm thinking of as I write this is the BIND-style configuration used by UnrealIRCd; while a nuisance to the old school admins who prefer O:<user>:<pass>:<flags> syntax, it is very valuable and easy to memorize for others)
"I know people can use older IRCds, but, very unlikly, the irc protocol can be edited a bit so you can make them obsolete, and put 'activation codes' or some sort of allow system in IRCds to prevent 'illegal' distribution of the software" - To make an alteration to the IRC protocol in such a way to render previous versions obsolete would also require a major overhaul of every single IRC client on the planel in order to accomodate the changes (and would very likely require the write-up of a brand spanking new RFC); this alone would be potential suicide for IRC as a whole, and incredibly unlikely to happen - I mean, why "fix" something that isn't really "broken" all in the name of excluding a given group or class of person?

If nothing else, I would probably recommend some sort of "mentoring" programme of sorts - like you can't obtain the ability to run your own IRC server unless you had at least 3 credible references from experienced and professional IRC admins; that way a potential irc admin can graduate from user to admin, but is mentored from go to whoa and is incredibly unlikely to ever go on a power trip.

The real slag for IRC, however, isn't really the power tripping admin (not from a public/media point of view, anyway) but instead the black eye bestowed on the protocol by the warez/packet kiddies, the kiddy porn and identity traders and other such filth - the ones that really get the media attention (when was the last time you ever heard of an IRC admin going rambo over a simple misunderstanding on any mainstream news outlet?)

Trixar_za · Posted: May 08, 2009 11:12am Post subject:

Seems the cure is worse than the disease...

Maybe it's simpler to teach than restrict, don't you think? I've known lots of power-hungry admins, that feel that the best way to run a network is to restrict as much power to JUST them. I'll admit, with some powers I don't see the point in ANYBODY having them, but to horde them to to only a select few (namely just them) is just stupid and 'noob' behavior. It would simpler just to teach those opers how to use their powers responsibly or remove it all together (for example Unreal's Oper-override).

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that restriction isn't the answer, in fact, it may worsen it (ever hear of torrent sites?), but maybe we can setup some 'training' of users to be more responsible admins and opers. Just a thought though...

JoeK · Posted: May 08, 2009 1:40pm Post subject:

Well, come to think of it, the cure is fate itself. People who run an IRCd with no intelligence of IRC or people skills, seem to have their network die out(ive seen it happen ALOT).

Trixar_za · Posted: May 08, 2009 1:58pm Post subject:

PingBad · Posted: May 08, 2009 5:39pm Post subject:

I may have given the wrong impression with my previous post... but I don't support restricting IRCd availability in the name of preventing a group that doesn't present any real threat to IRC, my opinion regarding the mentoring in the post was an example of a more - to me - rational approach than what the OP had in mind.

Telume · none Joined: 06 Jul 2007 Posts: 46

I actually don't agree with a lot of the ideas myself, I am a vet of 10 years on IRC and I started just like everyone else. Tinkering my way to the top. Lets face it, I like to mess with stuff and that's how I got into network-building.

And what JoeK says is true, people who suck at running a network, will see it die out. But those who are willing to learn from mistakes like I did will see it pay off in the long run.

Edit: My net was built off of these mistakes and has been running happily for 5-6 years now. It's still small but growing and because I know the spam policies I will not say the name here. Smile

I'll give you an example from my experience (which compared to a lot of the people here may not be a whole lot).

When I first started trying to run my own network, I used to be overly aggressive in a lot of things.

When someone linked, I wanted conformity.
When I advertised, it was almost spamming.
What I thought was a shell, was actually a crummy machine running far away that could barely hold its connection for 6+ hours.
And what I thought was a domain was one of those stupid *.ma.cx things you could get for free.

But I learned from ALL of this. And I think someone's willingness to learn reflects on the success or failure of the network. Which all those people who died out are probably mostly failures.

Not to say that all of them are failures though, some of them are just shut down from administrator's lack of time. I can attest to one network shutting off because of that: InfinityChat.co.uk shut it doors because the head admin was pregnant and she didn't have time to pay attention to IRC anymore.

Long 2 cents, but it's my 2 cents on this issue.

katsklaw · Posted: May 09, 2009 7:58am Post subject:

Trixar_za · Posted: May 09, 2009 10:09am Post subject:

I'm started very much in the middle of what Telume and katsklaw is talking about - I was given my oper status because I was trusted and I was fully allowed to tinker (which I did - obsessive tinkerer me - I bet I've crashed more IRCd, Services and Bots than anyone with my tinkering - especially them all being LIVE - Now atleast I learned to run test setups Razz

)

I was arrogant myself in the beginning and even more as I 'grew' with experience on IRC. It was only when I realized that it was about the USERS and not me, that it hit me what a ass I was being - which lost the network users - and no wonder I say Neutral

Now some of you may even notice me preaching this way too much on these forums, but it's true dammit! Razz

As for the monkey setting up a link with services and unreal, it's pretty true - mind you, I know of networks that added o-lines for Services, never added services to ulines and believe they can't link a windows server with a linux server over a dynamic IP setup (which if they bothered to read the manual, they'd realize all the above can be done and remove the o-lines for services atleast...). So it's true, a monkey can set it up, but it actually takes work to learn how to do anything effectively - or very least RTFM!

Telume · none Joined: 06 Jul 2007 Posts: 46

I didn't oper anywhere near 100k, but I did oper and helpop in a few places. So I do know what I'm doing to some extent. Plus a lot of my knowledge comes from some of the college classes I'm taking as well.

(I spend my time experimenting with things when I don't feel like paying attention. I still somehow manage A's and B's though, har.)

And actually I prefer the older format that most of the older veterans prefer to the new one, the letter flags are actually 10 times easier to remember than the "can_gkline and so on" format unrealircd uses is.

PingBad · Posted: May 09, 2009 4:28pm Post subject:

Willaim · Idler Joined: 27 Jun 2003 Posts: 323 Location: IRC

The availability of IRC software is crucial to keep IRC as a medium alive.