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uchat
Idler
Joined: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 335
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 Posted: May 31, 2004 8:49am Post subject: Why New Admins shouldn't be IRC Newbies. |
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Just wanted to share an example of why Net Admins shouldn't be IRC newbies.
Before I paste the link I'd like to express that I'm not picking at or making fun of this post. I just see a perfect example why Net Admins should be experienced server admins/IRCops BEFORE tackling the big "NA".
In the thread you'll see a user having problems at trying to use NickServ's nick enforce feature, which is all well and good. Even experienced admins can have a problem with configuring a Services package that they have never used before.
However, when it come down to it, the user didn't know what a U:Line truely does.
http://www.anope.org/postp6074.html#6074 |
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Talrias
Lurker
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 160
Location: :noitacoL
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| Posted: May 31, 2004 9:29am Post subject: |
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Actually he said he made a typo in the U:Line. I don't understand how that shows he doesn't understand what a U:Line does.
Anyway, I can think of at least one IRCd which doesn't have U:Lines. I was speaking to a network admin from a network running that IRCd and he didn't know what a U:Line was, yet I would describe him (and the other staff on that network) as very competent opers.
Chris |
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uchat
Idler
Joined: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 335
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| Posted: May 31, 2004 9:37am Post subject: |
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All IRCd's that Anope supports have U:Lines.
Yes, he did say it was a typo .. BUT if he knew what a U:Line did ... then he would have known to check his U:Line for typos when NIckServ failed to change the nick in question.
For my information, please name 1 IRCd that don't have a U:Line or something that acts as a U:Line. So I can stay away from any network that runs that IRCd. |
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codemastr
Idler
Joined: 05 Feb 2004
Posts: 345
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| Posted: May 31, 2004 9:44am Post subject: |
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I don't think "IRC Newbie" is the best way to describe them. I had been using IRC for about 3 years before I ever heard the term "U:line." I certainly was not new to IRC, and I knew a lot about channel management, I simply never had a need to know what a U:line was.
I do get your point though, people should know what they are doing before they do it, but it's not that easy unfortunately. There is no "IRC Administration for Dummies" book. So you do wind up learning on your feet. And as Talrais pointed out, IRCds are rather various. You could be an expert at creating O:lines, but then you switch to a recent IRCd, and suddenly the entire config file format is completely changed. You might have been running a server for 10 years, and knew everything there was to know, but now, you have to learn the config file all over again.
I agree, admins are sometimes unqualified. I have no idea how many times I see admins saying "help, I just klined myself!" and the like. But, to a degree, and this really goes with any job, you learn by way of experience. |
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uchat
Idler
Joined: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 335
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| Posted: May 31, 2004 7:57pm Post subject: |
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| codemastr wrote: | I don't think "IRC Newbie" is the best way to describe them. I had been using IRC for about 3 years before I ever heard the term "U:line." I certainly was not new to IRC, and I knew a lot about channel management, I simply never had a need to know what a U:line was.
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You didn't jump into netadmin from informed user either, did you?
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I do get your point though, people should know what they are doing before they do it, but it's not that easy unfortunately. There is no "IRC Administration for Dummies" book. So you do wind up learning on your feet. And as Talrais pointed out, IRCds are rather various. You could be an expert at creating O:lines, but then you switch to a recent IRCd, and suddenly the entire config file format is completely changed. You might have been running a server for 10 years, and knew everything there was to know, but now, you have to learn the config file all over again.
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I understand that there are structural differences between IRCd's. I understand that one can get lost in a config file. Perfect example is your O:Line example. Bahamut uses a traditional O:Line, Unreal as we both know uses an oper block. HOWEVER, a user that is verse in one can adapt to the other ... and know that when they get an error when trying to oper ... they know where to look.
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I agree, admins are sometimes unqualified. I have no idea how many times I see admins saying "help, I just klined myself!" and the like. But, to a degree, and this really goes with any job, you learn by way of experience.
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Yeah the "I just K:Lined myself" is a big clue. In fact I can say I made that exact mistake when I started flirting with IRCd's from my FreeBSD box here at the house oh so many years ago.
I've been in customer service for quite some time and can easily tell the difference between ignorance and mistakes.
Again I wasn't making fun of this user by posting here. I would teach and treat this individual properly. I'm prone to using a persons mistake/ignorance to help teach others even if the mistake/ignorance was my own. Anonymously of course. |
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codemastr
Idler
Joined: 05 Feb 2004
Posts: 345
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| Posted: May 31, 2004 9:16pm Post subject: |
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You didn't jump into netadmin from informed user either, did you?
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Hmm... You were only talking about netadmins? I guess the title was a typo then (new admins)? No, you're right, I didn't jump straight to netadmin, but I was never an oper, I went straight from user to admin.
| Quote: | | I understand that there are structural differences between IRCd's. I understand that one can get lost in a config file. Perfect example is your O:Line example. Bahamut uses a traditional O:Line, Unreal as we both know uses an oper block. HOWEVER, a user that is verse in one can adapt to the other ... and know that when they get an error when trying to oper ... they know where to look. |
First, I guess you haven't seen Bahamut 1.8  Yes I agree, users can adapt, and from what I've seen most experienced admins have adapted just fine. What I just meant was, some people might not realize that a Uline is necessary, since it isn't necessary in all IRCds. For example, IRCds not designed for use with services don't have such a feature. |
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uchat
Idler
Joined: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 335
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| Posted: May 31, 2004 9:27pm Post subject: |
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| codemastr wrote: | | Quote: |
You didn't jump into netadmin from informed user either, did you?
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Hmm... You were only talking about netadmins? I guess the title was a typo then (new admins)? No, you're right, I didn't jump straight to netadmin, but I was never an oper, I went straight from user to admin.
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Yes I was refering to Net Admins. Sorry for any confusion.
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| Quote: | | I understand that there are structural differences between IRCd's. I understand that one can get lost in a config file. Perfect example is your O:Line example. Bahamut uses a traditional O:Line, Unreal as we both know uses an oper block. HOWEVER, a user that is verse in one can adapt to the other ... and know that when they get an error when trying to oper ... they know where to look. |
First, I guess you haven't seen Bahamut 1.8 Yes I agree, users can adapt, and from what I've seen most experienced admins have adapted just fine. What I just meant was, some people might not realize that a Uline is necessary, since it isn't necessary in all IRCds. For example, IRCds not designed for use with services don't have such a feature. |
No I haven't played with Bahamut after 1.4.36 .. I like Unreal 3.2 too much  Could you please name one IRCd that don't use a U:Line. Even EFnet uses a U:Line.
If we think about it for a few minutes, just the issue of an akill/gline wouldn't happen without some form of a U:Line .. or at least all servers on the net coded to propagate a local K:Line upon a broadcast. Without a U:Line a person would have to be banned from each and every server or the IRCd wriiten to treat ALL servers as a U:Lined connection ... and if the later is the case I'd really worry about the security, especially if the RAW command was in the IRCd as well. |
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codemastr
Idler
Joined: 05 Feb 2004
Posts: 345
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| Posted: May 31, 2004 9:34pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Could you please name one IRCd that don't use a U:Line. Even EFnet uses a U:Line. |
If I recall, "ircd" (the one used by IRCNet) doesn't have a U:line. |
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Talrias
Lurker
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 160
Location: :noitacoL
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| Posted: Jun 01, 2004 6:12am Post subject: |
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| uchat wrote: | | For my information, please name 1 IRCd that don't have a U:Line or something that acts as a U:Line. So I can stay away from any network that runs that IRCd. |
dancer-ircd does not use U:Lines. It's used on freenode. It simply doesn't need them.
Chris |
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Ashen
Idler
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 284
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angelic
Lurker
Joined: 01 Aug 2003
Posts: 148
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| Posted: Jul 13, 2004 1:40am Post subject: |
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| codemastr wrote: | | There is no "IRC Administration for Dummies" book. |
There's a gap in the market |
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blueice
none
Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Sep 06, 2004 4:51pm Post subject: |
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| codemastr wrote: | | I agree, admins are sometimes unqualified. I have no idea how many times I see admins saying "help, I just klined myself!" and the like. But, to a degree, and this really goes with any job, you learn by way of experience. |
Ha! I just found this thread and I love it... and I can't resist, I have to tell you a funny one. Maybe it will wizard a smile on some faces and my good deed for today is done
I am wearing the impressive title of a 'Tech Admin' on our network, since many years. Everything works smooth and fine usually, but experience does not always prevent you from looking like a complete fool!
Few facts first: the boss of our network, Samantha1, has all network channels (like #ircops, #services, #help etc.) and all gamers channels (like #21, #trivia, #uno etc.) registered on her nick and she maintains the chanops lists and such.
I started IRC on Undernet back in 1995, then I became founder of a big DALnet channel (almost 100 users) in 1996, then a year later I moved to a smaller network run by policemen and became Ircop there (Ultimate IRCD), then later I decided to run my own Ultimate server and I finally joined Samantha's network in 1999. They made me tech admin, so it is my job to install and configure and update our 5 Ultimate servers and both the services (Anope and Neostats), and things worked fine for many years now. That's why I would dare to call myself a qualified, well-experienced admin who knows quite a lot about u:lines and all that.
We train all new opers ONLY to use akill if needed, NO g-lines. The only way g-lines are used, is by secureserv hitting the webcam spam dorks, before they can reach our users. Since these [{\^/}] nicks kept filling up our nick.db, I added a remote line for the admins sitting in #services, and each time someone gets glined, they will automatically use nickserv to drop this nick. Works great!
But now it gets wild. I edited the customviri.dat for secureserv, testing if I could get a floodbot that wasn't caught by secureserv yet. It used a certain type of nick. To test my regex (I am not that firm in perl), I asked my g/f to change to a nick like this floodbot used, and I would immediately lift her akill.
I forgot one thing tho... my g/f, being a good friend of Samantha1, was spending that weekend at Sam's house. And this was my bingo!
What happened? First, my g/f used Sam's other PC so she had the same hostmask. Second, secureserv did not do an akill, as I expected it and as it said in the docs. No, it used a g-line instead. Third, not only my g/f but Samantha1 as well got g-lined. Fourth, I was sitting in #services, and when Samantha1 got g-lined, my remote line dropped her nick. Fifth, with dropping her nick, all her registered channels as well as all the access lists were gone. Sixth, since I never had to deal with g-lines, all I had was the /ungline command in my docs. Wouldn't work. Unknown command, it said. WAAAH!
So here I stood, with the boss of my network being banned by me, her nick being dropped by me, all her channels and access lists being lost because of me, and superhero me being completely unable to lift her ban.
Can one of you guys think of a better way, to look like a TOTAL idiot?
When I started screaming and panicking, one of our well-educated server admins finally handed me a handcrafted /remgline command which worked well, and when Sam was back online, she was 'not amused' to put it politely... but I didn't lose my job! I am still the tech admin of our network, Sam is still completely happy with me and my questionable skills, and by the way... since my regex line actually DID get that floodbot, it was added to the built-in viri.dat of secureserv the next day. But I can tell you, I won't forget the roaring laughter I caused!
Oh well! Since this is the 'chat' forum, I thought this story would fit here, to show uchat even with hiring only 'experienced' staff, you can have big bad goofs on your network. Noone is totally safe from pulling a BAD stunt, every now and then |
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Talrias
Lurker
Joined: 16 Feb 2004
Posts: 160
Location: :noitacoL
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| Posted: Sep 06, 2004 6:40pm Post subject: |
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Heh... that's one mistake you won't make again in a hurry... 
Chris |
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blueice
none
Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Sep 06, 2004 7:11pm Post subject: |
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You bet, Chris!
I place a bet on my underwear, that I will try my best never EVER to do such an embarrassing goofy again...
But then, we are all just humans, and chit happens, says Murphy. I can only promise to try my best, not to goof like that again. But I can not absolutely exclude it |
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pomme
none
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Sep 18, 2004 9:51pm Post subject: |
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| uchat wrote: | | ... Even EFnet uses a U:Line. |
The Ulines on Hybrid are -not- the same as the ulines on Unreal. Don't automatically assume that because Hybrid 6 has a U: line in the conf, that it does the same thing as a U: line on Bahamut or Unreal 3.1.x. The Ulines on Unreal determine if a server can use SVS* commands. The Ulines on Hybrid allow opers on remote servers to use remote klines on that server. By setting the oper mask to * and setting the server to your services server, you allow anything from services to place a remote kline on that server. Last I checked, Anope for Hybrid 7 used remote klines for its OperServ akill command, which required a U: line (U:lines are changed to shared klines in version 7) for services to be placed on each server for akills to function globally. |
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